SELF SUSTANING, RAINBOWS

Jerry and Oogie

you make great valid points and my head is reeling right now.

I will confine my comments to the Lake Ontario fishery and tribs only.

for certain, many changes have pressured fish.....steelhead

climate, water quality, fishing pressure, invasive species, urban spawl...there is more, but will leave at that

We seem to be seeing th exact same thing..a decline.

I get that MNRF wants or wishes to pursue a madate of indigenous species only, but really?


the atlantics going in are not close to original strain and its a failure or at least certainly not a success story


yet, in northern lakes, put and take, they stock splake…...explain that one

the salmon and trout were put in to control alewife and smelt in the 60.s and it worked , maybe too well...….Suddenly a world class fishery was born and even tho it did/does cycle it was great till 2012......the reduction came in for the shore/stream river fishermen , but it did not achieve any increase in river runs I am aware of

Primarily this might be due to fact that most of feeder creeks/streams are no longer viable to generate enough of a hatch to sustain the fishery


I agree that more areas need protection for spawning fish. I agree that many people do not want to see bows or salmon in the rivers

I applaud all the local fish clubs volunteers etc, that help with clearing and stream restoration, egg collection and more


I do not agree with MNRF mandate anymore at for its application for Lake O

I say ' get with the times"...won't going back to riding horse.so do not be trying to turn the clock back to the days of pristine S. Wilmot days

My opinion is what the river/shore fisherman takes is a very small fraction of what leaves the lake.Perfect example is, I’ve steelheaded the rivers all my life, but all the biggest I’ve ever caught have been in the lake, where are those 15 pounders in the rivers when you want them? I can count on one hand how many ive caught in the river but I’ve got lots of tanks in the boat, alot of speculation im sure, But I believe those 5 to 8 pounders are the prime spawning fish and that’s why they’re there, the basis of nippissings slot limit, You would think the big ones with the big bellies would make the most babies, but it’s those 17 1/2 inch fish that create the most young and of year To contribute to the fishery

All of the mnrs descisions are Based on years of recorded data, the same site at the same time of the year , yada yada ,but they just don’t seem to adjust, because they need years of hard data to make a change, and in the last 20 years have been crazy up-and-down, we’ve had major great lakes invaders we all no, most have actually helped as far as I can see, hope the Asian carp never gets in , but what I’m saying is they need years and years of evidence to substantiate a change, and I agree that you can’t be too hasty about changing our resources

I know for a fact that young of the year studies and fingerling studies were off the charts this year In a few if our water bodies, Whether that means they will materialiise, I’m not sure, but it bodes well for the quality of our feeder streams

size of viable spawning fish is often a debatable subject. hear it all the time.

that big female is needed to pass on the genes, while this is not quite correct for many species

will add though that this fall, late fall has/had a really good run of bows and browns in the lower Niagara

only ones I did not see in abundance were the :egg eaters"......the 2 pounders


as for the lake fishery, on bows, no idea of how many are taken lake wide I don't fish the blue zone anymore, but it would seem shore fishers will always target charter guys, like myself first rather than tending their own back yard don't you think?

the carp are here already

hard/recorded data?

16 years they been saying baitfish population is way down

in the meantime, the smelt are coming back and at least on the south shore. I cn assure you there is no shortage of bait


data is often skewered to move an agenda forward...….ooops

Mnr must think rainbows can self sustain themselves, like they have from the beginning, theyll always be here, take a look at the rivers in superior and see what’s dominated there, pink salmon, and steelhead, Pink salmon got dumped in the drain and now there are huge runs, the only reason is because they Spawn in everyone of the rivers that dump into superior

yup, fished every stream/river flowing into Superior as I lived there for 20 years


you forgot the coho and the atlantics in the Soo..only place they are doing well

but look at the difference in river/water quality and pressure,



I digress, will try to contain to lake o and tribs only and enough for tonite



good discussion...….

Yes I’m sure the data is always skewered, and I’m sure most of it is a US-based opinion pushed upon Ontario, but I remember the huge die off of baitfish on the shores of everylake Ontario beach mid 80s to 90s , remember those crazy cohos...wish they’d stock those again...., but the bait fish have never been that heavy and probably never will again, Nice to hear the smelt are coming back on the south shore again though, Is the bait fish study relative to what used to be in the lake? I’ve marked lots of schools of bait from 140 feet to the bottom of my boat, I think it’s like what jerry said, alot of it is cyclical, seemed to happen around the time we saw zebra mussels and Gobies invade the great lakes, no longer did we receive the mass wash up of dead alewife on the shore, and everybody started to panic, and yes there was a lot less schools of baitfish on our Sonars for about four years, and then they all seemed to come back, but like I said , it takes mnr forever to adjust to that , Everything has to be proven through data before changes can be made

Yes, unfortunately you will probably always be a target shank as a charter guy, not by me, but to those who don’t understand, i know its not an easy gig, and i commend you for sticking it out

Im on an eternal quest for knowledge, and you have to weigh all the factors, I appreciate your input, because with discussion we can all learn and hopefully contribute to the great fishery we have at our disposal

hard/recorded data?

16 years they been saying baitfish population is way down

in the meantime, the smelt are coming back and at least on the south shore. I cn assure you there is no shortage of bait


data is often skewered to move an agenda forward...….ooops

When you say the carp are here, which species are you referring to? Please don't say silver or bighead! If I've learned anything from gobies, rusties, and zebra muscles its this. If you see one. Just one. There are probably hundreds or thousands you cant see. So often by the time sightings are reported its already too late. If this is the case the big head and silver carp could truly be the worse thing to happen to the great lakes. Humans also have this annoying habit of removing apex predators from ecosystems in an attempt to lessen pressure desirable catches. RE texas and "the electric gar destroyer". Anything we see as competition. So I have to wonder if the Mississippi still had enormous populations of gar would the Asian carp problem be as bad? Now if the MNR were to state that funds were being diverted from stocking programs to combat populations of Asian carp I am all for that! Maybe that's what's happening here. I have no idea. It is truly a sad day if Asian carp have already established themselves.

If the smelt are increasing on the South Shore, why was the smelt run on the Niagara River almost non existent this past spring? The only plus to that was the invasion of litter and filth was way down.

Yes the asian carp are here and they have caught fertile adults. I believe it was Grass Carp and caught in Lake Ontario.

Here is my steelhead catch trend for the Lake O Tribs in the past few years.

There is a slight downward trend, and what appears to be a cyclic population fluctuation (as stated).

As I reported in my fall steelhead summary, very few egg eaters / shaker trout (1 - 2 lbs) caught in the last 2 - 3 years. Furthermore a definite decline in incidental smolts being caught in the upper rivers after opener. This is a concern.

Sorry not enough data to say without a doubt we are in a decline. Although I can say it's been harder the past few years to catch steelhead. I can tell by the looks on the faces of other anglers, going out in perfect water conditions, and the constant parade of anglers going to their cars early, 10 am and already leaving.... Fishing is slow. Lots of complaining too.. LOL..

I try not to complain, I just fish, and concentrate on the task at hand, putting fish on the bank.. The fact I am fishing and not chained to a desk that morning is a blessing on to it's self...