SELF SUSTANING, RAINBOWS

I looked up the definition and it is as follows :- A self-sustaining process or system is able to continue by itself without anyone or anything else becoming involved.

The MNR has deemed that all eastern rivers with the exception of one that gets a pittance of 18k fingerlings are self sustaining and have not done any stocking for at least 6/7 years . I know that these last 3 years have been pretty bad not just for me but many friends who have fished these rivers for years and are far better fishermen than myself. These last few weeks the rivers have been prime -good rains warm temps and virtually no runs. Granted a few came up with the salmon in October but since then its been dreadful. The Ganny our prime and pristine river has had 2 minor and I mean minor runs this fall and early winter even with superb conditions.

So where is this all leading too -quite simply our rivers are not self sustaining and haven't been for the last 3/4 years. The great runs of 2011. to 2014 were the result of the stocking program and the last of those progeny was around 2014

Now lets do the math , first of all the Blue Zone. Lets say there are 10 charter boats up and down the lake,and they catch and keep five bows each day for there customers. lets say they get out 4 days a week - thats 200 bows each week . Lets say a 10 week season ,theres 2000 taken out the system. Let me be clear here I am NOT putting any blame on the charters , they work hard and want fish for there customers . So 2000 just on the charters . Then theres the private boats . Then theres the river fisherman who can keep 2 every day of the week and believe me many do and much much more. Then add to that regular mortality , gill lice, which is making a comeback this year. etc All of these numbers are quite legal catches , Im guessing here that around 4/5 thousand bows are taken out of the system each year. Thats more fish than half a dozen rivers get combined. So there we have it-self sustaining my arse. The MNR field guys do a great job under terrible pressure- its the back room MNR boffins who make these calls , and they wouldn't know where to put a reel on a rod., and yet they screw around with our wonderful rivers and deem these fish can "self sustain". Finally about 2/3 years back the MNR had a number of students asking fisherman on our rivers what were the problems. The young lad who interviewed me said that to a tee everyone interviewed said the same thing -bring back the stocking to alleviate the horrendous number of fish taken each year. Was there any follow through on this program-not to my knowledge .

Thanks for reading

Well said. Mother nature can take care of itself if the most envasive species, humans, are not around. But they are and stocking is the answer to that. Until the only strategy of government is “banning” or slot size limits to help natural recovery we will see these declines (and I agree. It was terrible this year). It blows my mind when I look at stocking numbers in the US, sometimes 10s and 100s of millions in lakes smaller than major fisheries (like Simcoe) here. We can nag about it but it won’t get anywhere

I believe stocking is good in some cases not all though Alberta is a good example they dumped millions of walleye into the pothole lakes and it,s ruined the fishery ,no pike no baitfish just tons of skinny little walleye.

Stocking has been proved to be a total success with bows and salmon . (with the exception of the stupid Atlantic Program which will devastate the Ganny for bows.
Look at the runs we used to enjoy, big fat healthy fish - my biggest bow came from Oshawa creek , around 15/16lbs back in 2011 I think it was. Look at the salmon runs this year , huge numbers in all the rivers, and very healthy fish , all due to stocking. It works for fisherman but we are wrong and the MNR so called scientists call the shots.
Unless something is done to stop the kill numbers every year there will not be any bows around in 10 years time .

Well, well well, Have been waiting for someone to revive this and provide detailed information.

I will respond later …

For original poster, you may wish to read the pinned post about rainbow reduction on top of this section,,,,,,as the bows were reduced from 5 to 2 back in 2013

I asked the question then.....what is the real motive from mnrf for the reduction

95 % agreed with reduction to 2 and gave mnrf an easy out for less stocking

more later

seems not too much interest in this, which is shocking...

anyway, had to go through all my records and found that my bow catch has gone down by 70 % since 2012

that is also taking the limit reduction from 5 to 2 into play for what it is worth

without the US stocking, I am thinking we would be in more trouble

so, my question is, why do we constantly look to blame others, instead of getting together as users of the lakes and rivers and demand more hatcheries and fish production, instead of cutbacks, reduced limits and or slot sizes.

It was stocking that brought the fishery into existence and it worked

Werner thank-you for the data.

I have accurate catch numbers for the past 5 or 6 years fishing the rivers. I will compile the data and report here.. But just on feeling alone I can say steelhead numbers in the rivers are down, especially some of them. A few rivers seem stable. I will say the more urban rivers are fishing very poor. Fishing pressure, construction and urban sprawl in the headwaters doing lots of damage, combine that with reduced stocking of steelhead / rainbow trout and this is the result. I dont fish for salmon in the rivers at all, IMO its a waste of time. Salmon only feed during the first few days they enter the rivers, and then its just flossing, lining and force feed fishing. Not interested... Although I do understand pacific salmon are highly targeted and prized in the big lake, charter fishing etc.

Steelhead are really the only trout and the odd Brown that provide angling opportunties for river fishermen. They actively feed and take presentations. I will check my catch data, but I already know the result...

MNR do not want steelhead in the rivers, as far as I can gather, since they are deemed invasive and non-native species.. You guys can prove me wrong.. This is just my gut feeling..

X2 what Werner said, it was stocking that brought steelheading into existance. It is an artifical fishery, in existance for 30 or 40 years, as far as i can tell. Sorry thats as far back as I can go..

My two cents.... i think we’d all like more stocking, ive watched a gradual decline in bows in the rivers, ontario and new york, for about 15 yrs, i know erie doesn’t have the rainbow fishery it used to back in 2008 to 2012, lake fishery, cattaraugus stocks were cut drastically because of natural reproduction, looking at the big picture, could that have had an impact? Ive wanted to comment on this for a while, buts its a tough one.... i think for every 2000 charter fish , that number might be close for the pleasure angler as well, once you find them out there, you can stay on them for months I did it for many years and had plenty of 3o fish days, but i also noticed a steady decline in blue zone fish since 2012, as far as I’m concerned it’s not only affected erie and ontario, i see a decline in huron and gbay tribs as well , I just often wonder if global warming is actually starting to deteriorate are natural stocks, the bases of Ontario‘s program was reliant on Natural reproduction especially in Huron And Georgian Bay, and Erie on the Ontario side has The Norfolk sand plain, yes the water conditions were great this year, but look at what we’ve had to deal with over the last 10 years, up-and-down like a toilet seat, The saugeen might be the exception, because of the stocking that the private clubs have done and all the great work tagging and capturing, transporting, and using only saugeen prodginy ....im on the fence....ontario steelhead fight unlike any other, i cant help but think some of that has to do with being born in the same river for many generations, the states have watered down there stocks from many breeds and hatcheries all over, weve stuck witn our original strain of gany prodginy from original west coast stocks, notawasaga, and bighead helped along the way

I cant Really comment on the Gany and all her Coldwater cousins that run inn in her vicinity, which were always known for good Natural reproduction, but I expect that has had an impact on your Ontario fish as well . I honestly don’t think that our Ontario great lakes fishery should be completely based upon stocking

Steelhead are very hardy fish and can naturally reproduce well in good rivers. Dry springs and hot summers greatly affects the success of the spawn. We are experiencing some of these conditions as of late. I have always found the numbers are cyclic, like all things in nature, but the last few years, especially the last 2, have been poor fishing and the complaining will start now...

IMO certain sections of all rivers, the prime headwater and cold water areas, should be year round sanctuaries, no fishing. These areas are butcheries come opening day, snagging fish on redds etc. Furthermore summer fishing these sections, people catching smolts in 30C weather, just kills young steelhead. No need for these areas to be open to fishing at all. But the fly fishers might complain.

Add urban development and the high price of ravine lot homes. Etc. Adding silt to these sections and raising temps...

Conclusion - If you dont protect the spawning areas, well... its a no brainer.. Simple math..

Rant over...

I’m glad that you agree with me metalbuckle, that Ontario actually does rely on Natural reproduction of our stocks, Mnr has to wise up about the rearing areas ,and stock sections with stupid trout for the flyfisherman like they have done with the brown trout fishery on the grand river, they call that world class, it’s a bunch of stocked fish, but because of stocking garnering $300 us guide fees, but not hurting anything because nothing can get past the Paris dam, money is probably the barrier that’s keeping A fishway going in at Paris, funny that Ontario has never stocked the grand river with steel head, its an entirely cattaraugus breed of fish that have Spawned in her tributaries that some think is the biggestvrunnin ontario

I’ve sat quiet for a while but I hope this gets some people talking

I don’t get out east much but, the last few times I’ve been out there I always take a drive around the Willie and the top of the Gany and I haven’t seen a lot of development in the top areas of that region, is there? I know the top of the notty has suffered over the last 20 years, and I’m sure that’s taken a toll, I often wondered why the walleye population died in the her, like you said, things are cyclic and anyone whos fished for 20 yrs has definitely seen it

I think that There should be specific seasons river dependant, The ones that have the most natural production and have the most yoy fish should be off-limits period, but that would be difficult, it might be better to regulate it to the cfs in summer flow, Most rivers that have a good brown trout population have good base flow through the summer

I know I’ve strayed far from the subject shank, but I’m still trying to piece this together in my own head